The Virtual CISO Podcast

August 31, 2023

Navigating New Horizons: CMMC, NIST 800-171 Updates, and Compliance Insights

  In this episode of the “Virtual CISO Podcast,” your host John Verry speaks with guest Warren Hylton, a FedRisk

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July 13, 2023

Ep #121 – Jack Liljeberg Assistant Broker Thompson Flanagan

Strategies for Reducing the Cost of Your Cyber Liability Insurance Policy Description Like many other businesses, law firms are at

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June 20, 2023

Ep #120: A FedRAMP ATO – The Good, The Bad and the Ugly

To do wide-scale business within the US federal government, cloud service providers (CSPs) need a FedRAMP ATO. The prospect can

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May 30, 2023

Ep #119: What is a Microservice Architecture and how do I secure it?

Whatever kind of software application a team is building, the identification and remediation of cybersecurity issues needs to be part

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May 16, 2023

Ep #118: The Simplest Way to Transition from ISO 27001:2013 to ISO 27001:2022

If you are ISO 27001 certified, or considering it, you are likely wondering how the transition from ISO 27001:2013 to

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May 4, 2023

Ep #117: Eight Key Takeaways from the RSA 2023 Conference

  In this week’s episode of the Virtual CISO podcast, your host John Verry, Pivot Point Security CISO and Managing

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April 25, 2023

Ep #116: What is an SBOM & Why Are My Customers Suddenly Asking for One?

  With the release of President Biden’s Executive Order 14028 on “Improving the Nation’s Cybersecurity” from May 2021 the US

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April 11, 2023

Ep #115: If Your Asset Management Sucks, Your Security Sucks

Asset management is a crucial aspect of information security. It refers to the processes and procedures involved in identifying, organizing,

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March 28, 2023

Ep #114: 4 Tactical Steps To Implementing DevSecOps In 2023

   DevSecOps is the practice of integrating security testing at every stage of the software development process. With DevSecOps,

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March 14, 2023

Ep #113 – Should we be in Microsoft 365 GCC, GCC High, or Commercial?

 Microsoft 365 was launched in 2011 in hopes of revolutionizing cloud-powered productivity platforms. Since then, Microsoft 365 has grown

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February 28, 2023

Ep #112 – When should you move to ISO 27001:2022?

   ISO 27001:2022 is the first update to the global “gold standard” for provable cybersecurity in ten years. Notable

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February 14, 2023

Ep #111 – How to use the Software Assurance Maturity Model (SAMM) to Build Highly Secure Applications

 The “buzz” in building more secure applications is “shift security left,” which means integrating security into and throughout the

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January 31, 2023

Ep #110 – Understanding TISAX (Trusted Information Security Assessment Exchange)

 Trusted Information Security Assessment Exchange (TISAX) is a vendor due diligence standard used in the automotive industry to verify

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January 17, 2023

Ep #109 – Understanding How Cybercriminals Operate Can Protect Your Business

In today’s cyber landscape, business leaders and security professionals need every edge they can gain to better protect their organizations

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January 4, 2023

Ep #108 – Understanding the Legalities Around CUI

Orgs in the DIB need to protect CUI in alignment with the NIST 800-171 cybersecurity standard—and soon the Cybersecurity Maturity

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December 20, 2022

Ep #107 – An AWS Security Guru’s Recommendation for Securing your AWS Infrastructure

Over 90% of security breaches in the public cloud stem from user error, and not the cloud service provider. Today,

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December 13, 2022

Ep#106 – Strategies to Manage Cybersecurity through an Economic Downturn

Managing Cyber Security through an Economic downturn is no easy task. With increasing concerns on how to stay secure and

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November 29, 2022

Ep#105 – Solving the Problems of Cloud Native Applications

Building Cloud Native Applications can bring about many operational and security problems. Today, we sat down with an expert in

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November 15, 2022

Ep#104 – Is Digital Business Risk Management the future of Attack Surface Management?

Digital Business Risk Management helps companies track and disrupt the most advanced bad actors and malevolent infrastructures. Team Crymu specializes

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November 2, 2022

Ep#103 – The Complexity of deploying a secure application in the cloud

Governance, Risk, and Compliance (GRC) platforms can be very tricky to construct. Today, we sat down with an expert in

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October 25, 2022

Ep#102 – Rosemary Martorana – The intersection of Privacy and Security

You cannot have privacy without security. While they once existed quite distinct from one another, they are now so delicately

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October 14, 2022

Ep#101 – George Perezdiaz – Most Asked CMMC Questions

CMMC (Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification) can raise many red flags and concerns – As CMMC rulemaking approaches in 2023, we

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September 16, 2022

Ep#100 – Dimitri Sirota – The Two Audiences For Privacy & How They Drive Data Collection

This marks our 100th episode of The Virtual CISO and an insightful journey into having the opportunity to have frank

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September 16, 2022

Ep#99 – Willy Fabritius – Unpacking Critical Elements of Supply Chain Risk Management

Supply chain risk management can prove to be a slippery slope—why should you take pains to conduct a proper risk

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September 16, 2022

Ep#98 – Taylor Smith – Breaking Down the Latest in Software Security Standards & the Impact on SaaS Businesses

What are the merits of the Software Assurance Maturity Model (SAMM), and how does it differ from the Application Security

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September 16, 2022

Ep#97 – Rob Dickinson – What You Need to Know about APIs and API Security

Application development is moving from a web-centric world to an API-centric world. If you’re wondering what that looks like, what

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September 16, 2022

EP#96 – James Fair – How to Measure the Value of Information Security

Most recognize the value preservation in cybersecurity.  But forward thinking professionals also see the value creation in having a secure

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September 16, 2022

EP#95 – Elzar Camper – Understanding NIST’s Secure Software Development Framework

What exactly is a Software Development Life Cycle, and how does NIST’s Secure Software Development Framework impact that cycle and

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September 15, 2022

EP#94 – Mark Montgomery – US Gov. Cybersecurity Roadmap: Where it came from and Where is it Going?

Today, information is worth more than riches. The new currency is data. With this being true, the state of cybersecurity

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July 12, 2022

EP#93 – Robert Buda – Confronting the Wild West of Database Security

Don’t wait for an emergency; secure your database correctly right out of the gate. Think of everything outside of your

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June 28, 2022

EP#92 – Ron Gula – Bridging the Gap Between Cybersecurity and the Business World

Ron Gula, President and Co-Founder of Gula Tech Adventures, has a very specific goal: To defend the country in cyberspace

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June 21, 2022

EP#91 – Eric Jesse – Legal & Infosec Strategies to Deal with Exploding Cyber Liability Insurance Premiums

There’s no denying that cybersecurity risks in the workplace have increased exponentially in recent years. From the pandemic causing employees

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June 17, 2022

EP#90 – John Verry – Important Clarifications on CMMC v2 from CMMC Day May 9, 2022

To invest in CMMC or to not invest in CMMC, that is the question. CMMC (Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification) is

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June 7, 2022

EP#89 – Alberto Yépez – The Past, Present and Future of Cybersecurity From the Viewpoint of a Venture Capitalist

Alberto Yépez joins the show to share his perspective as a venture capitalist working to help entrepreneurs build Cybersecurity businesses.

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May 25, 2022

EP#88 – Michelangelo Sidagni – Understanding Attack Surface Management and how it applies to your cyber security strategy

We’ve spent the last two and a half years with rapidly rising cloud adoption. It was a rocket ship before

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May 17, 2022

EP#87 – Chris Ciabarra – The Convergence of Physical & Cyber Security and the Impact to Cyber Security Professionals

As technology advances, there will always be new threats from malicious actors seeking to exploit these advancements — whether that

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May 10, 2022

EP#86 – Caleb Leidy – What New Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification (CMMC) Guidance Means for Managed Service Providers (MSPs)

As the implementation of CMMC by the DIB picks up pace, the frequently shifting requirements can be daunting — especially

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May 3, 2022

EP#85 – Deidre Diamond – 8 Ingredients for Baking Inclusivity Into Your Culture

Inclusivity and diversity aren’t just about who you hire — it’s about the culture you create. Sure, you can get

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April 20, 2022

EP#84 – Jack Naglieri – Becoming More Efficient With a Cloud-Native Approach

What if you could be proactive in your approach to cloud data security rather than a reactive one once the

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March 31, 2022

EP#83 – John DiMaria – Essential Cloud Security & Compliance Tips From CSA

Even before the pandemic, the majority of businesses were already moving to the cloud.  Now, it seems you can’t do

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March 29, 2022

EP#82 – Kyle Lai & Caleb Leidy – Ongoing Challenges in CMMC

We’ve had another bumpy year in 2021. So, what’s coming down the pike in 2022? And what impact will the

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March 22, 2022

EP#81 – Mike McNeil – Is Open Source the Future of Endpoint Security?

Open source is a transparency issue. Being able to see what code is running on your computer — as well

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March 15, 2022

EP#80 – Maxime Lamothe-Brassard – The AWS Approach to Provable Security

Traditionally, companies have relied on the promises of vendors when it comes to reaffirming their security stance. However, LimaCharlie has

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March 1, 2022

EP#79 – Ryan Mackie & Danny Manimbo – What Does the New ISO 27002 Update Mean for You?

After years, ISO 27002 is finally here. What does that mean for your business? Luckily, the transition should be pretty

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February 15, 2022

EP#78 – Andrea Willis – CMMC 2.0 & Continuous Compliance

If you look around at what’s happening in the world of cybersecurity, you’ll notice one thing:  Security never stops… Which

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February 4, 2022

EP#77 – John Verry – 8 Information Security Predictions for 2022

We’ve had another bumpy year in 2021. So, what’s coming down the pike in 2022? And what impact will the

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February 2, 2022

EP#76 – John Verry – Government Security Guidance: How We Got Here

If you’re beholden to government security guidance — and let’s face it, if you’re a company operating in the US,

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December 17, 2021

EP#75 – Joe Grand – How Hardware Hackers Exploit IoT Vulnerabilities

You’ve probably heard the hype:  IoT is the next frontier in the information revolution that promises to make all our

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December 10, 2021

EP#74 – Harshil Parikh – Bridging the Gap Between Security & Development Teams

There is an age-old conflict between security and development teams. Development teams are focused on time-to-market and packing features into

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December 3, 2021

EP#73 – Mark Richman – Why Cloud Is More Secure Than Your Average On-Prem Solution

What’s more secure? A cloud-based or on-prem document management system?   It’s a question that gets asked a lot in

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November 23, 2021

EP#72 – Brian Hajost – How Configuration Management Makes Security Simple

Configuration management is the best kept secret in security. Not only will it save time and money, it also helps

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November 12, 2021

EP#71 – Caleb Leidy & George Perezdiaz – CMMC 2.0 is Here! Find Out What It Really Means for DIB and Non-DIB USG Contractors

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has just announced CMMC 2.0, a new strategic direction for its cybersecurity program based

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November 11, 2021

EP#70 – Gerald Auger – How Simply Cyber Helps People Pivot to a Cybersecurity Career

A lot of people want to break into cybersecurity. And why not? Where else can you have a blast, work

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October 29, 2021

EP#69 – Steve Ginty – Can You Benefit From Attack Surface Management?

In a world where new vulnerabilities appear seemingly every minute, threat intelligence is more important than ever. And one of

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October 22, 2021

EP#68 – Mosi Platt – Why Continuous Compliance Matters More than Ever

  As public trust in technology erodes — for the first time — it’s clear that we need to reevaluate

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October 8, 2021

EP#67 – Hoala Greevy – ‎The Virtual CISO Podcast: How HIPAA Compliant Email is Revolutionizing Healthcare

When it comes to healthcare InfoSec, it’s the Wild West. Most healthcare organizations just don’t have the necessary IT budgets

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September 29, 2021

EP#66 – Jason Powell – Private Practices: How to Prioritize Privacy in Your Organization

In the U.S., it’s easy to look at overseas privacy legislation like GDPR and conclude it’s a reaction to worrying

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September 20, 2021

EP#65 – Chris Dorr – Why Information Security Is Key to Business Strategy

Chess legend Bobby Fischer once said that winning tactics flow from a superior position.  Bobby Fischer would have made a

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September 10, 2021

EP#64 – John Grange – Head in the Clouds: Multi-Cloud Security & Governance

How well do you know what’s happening in your cloud?  With so many people in an organization able to access

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September 2, 2021

EP#63 – Johnna Verry – Can We Predict Security Threats w/ Machine Learning?

Every CISO’s dreams of moving from reactive security to purely proactive security posture. In an era of big data and

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August 26, 2021

EP#62 – John Verry – What People Get Wrong About ISO 27001 Compliance

Just because ISO 27001 suggests a control, doesn’t mean you have to have it – in fact, you could be

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August 18, 2021

EP#61 – Raj Krishnamurthy – Bridging the Gap Between Traditional Compliance & DevOPs

Traditional compliance approaches have served us well for years… But they just don’t cut it anymore.  We need an approach

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August 11, 2021

EP#60 – John Verry – A Guide for Validating Your Security Process

In this special episode, we’re sharing a guest appearance I made on The Perfect Storm. During that episode, I shared

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August 4, 2021

EP#59 – John Verry – Governing Cybersecurity: A Process for Becoming Provably Secure & Compliant

Today’s special episode was inspired by a conversation I had with a then potential, now current client of ours at

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July 29, 2021

EP#58 – Scott Sarris – The Cybersecurity Executive Order: What You Need to Know

In the wake of the SolarWinds fiasco, a new executive order mandates practices to prevent future attacks… How well does

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July 21, 2021

EP#57 – Is Your Business Safe? w/ Josh Amishav-Zlatin

By the time you think of a ‘new’ password, attackers already have a way to crack it. Josh Amishav-Zlatin, Founder

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July 16, 2021

EP#56 – Information Governance w/ David Gould

Information governance is the solution to that irrational fear of deletion we all experience from time to time. Expert in

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July 2, 2021

EP#55 – DIBCAC & CMMC Audit Prep with George Perezdiaz & Caleb Leidy

Are you ready for your DIBCAC/CMMC audit? Let’s make sure. We’re speaking to two of our best Security Consultants from

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June 28, 2021

EP#54 – John Kindervag – Trust Is a Vulnerability: 5 Steps on the Path to Zero Trust

How do you quantify trust? Is it something that can be digitized? In the world of cybersecurity, trust is a

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June 17, 2021

EP#53 – Dr. Eric Cole – You Are a Target: Assessing Cybersecurity Risk

Whoever propagates the rumor that the goal of cybersecurity is to prevent all attacks deserves to be punched in the

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June 11, 2021

EP#52 – Stacy High-Brinkley – CMMC Assessments Are Here: What You Need to Know

In the latest episode, Stacy High-Brinkley, VP of Compliance Solutions at Cask, shares what you need to know about the

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June 5, 2021

EP#51 – Leah McGrath – Everything You Need to Know About StateRAMP

The federal government has FedRAMP to manage security authorizations for cloud service offerings. But cyber attacks don’t stop at the

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May 27, 2021

EP#50 – Chris Neyhuis – How EDR & NDR Help You Make Better Security Decisions

Remember those halcyon days when you could just stick an antivirus on your desktop and not worry — before all

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May 22, 2021

EP#49 – Sanjeev Verma – How PreVeil Drive Makes Storing and Sharing Data More Secure

PreVeil Drive is a cloud service that lets users encrypt, store and share their files for CMMC Compliance and personal

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May 14, 2021

EP#48 – John Verry – Lessons Learned in Our Initial 27701 Certification Audits

ISO-27701 is an exciting new standard. But it comes with a learning curve for all of us — clients, consultants,

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April 29, 2021

Using your ISO 9001 Management System to Simplify CMMC Certification

John Laffey, Program Manager at Perry Johnson Registrars, Inc. discusses the cornerstones of an information security management system from the

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April 21, 2021

EP#46 – John Sheridan – How to Communicate Across Departmental Divides

Have you ever wished that there was some sort of Star-Trek universal translator device for communicating your department’s needs to

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April 13, 2021

EP#45 – Charles Weaver – MSPs, MSSPs & Validation: What You Need to Kno‪w

Gone are the days when every company had their own internal IT department. We’re well into the era of Managed

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April 9, 2021

EP#44 – John Verry Guest Appearance with Eric Hess on The Encrypted Economy: Why CMMC Is the Most Significant Standard of All Tim‪e

With the proliferation of so many information security standards, are we nearing a breaking point?  In the end, which standard

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April 2, 2021

EP#43 – John Verry – CMMC Level 1: An Overview

Let’s talk about the Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification, or CMMC.  What is it, why should you care about it, and

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March 16, 2021

EP#42 – John Virgolino – Solutions to Security, Compliance, and Technology Challenges in Aerospace

Manufacturing tends to resist new technology. Not aerospace, though. It’s on the cutting edge. In this episode of The Virtual

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March 9, 2021

EP#41 – John Verry – CMMC Level 3: What Government Staffing Agencies Need to Kno‪w

In this episode of The Virtual CISO Podcast, host John Verry, CISO and Managing Partner at Pivot Point Security go

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March 4, 2021

EP#40 – Aaron Guzman – The ISVS: What You Need to Know

These days, everything is connected to the internet. Whether it’s your car, your light bulbs, your microwave, your pacemaker, or

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March 4, 2021

EP#39 – Stephen Halbrook – FedRAMP: What You Need to Know

Are you looking to get your product authorized for use by federal agencies? Then you probably need to understand FedRAMP,

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February 2, 2021

EP#38 – Dyann Mills – How Data Privacy Standards Affect Your Business

Privacy is changing. Across the globe, new standards are recognizing it as a fundamental human right.  But between GDPR, CCPA,

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January 21, 2021

EP#37 – Craig Unger – Should You Invest in a GRC Tool for Security & Compliance?

Getting your ducks in a row for a GRC audit can be a huge undertaking.  Especially when you get compliant

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January 11, 2021

EP#36 – Corbin Evans – CMMC Compliance: The Nuances You Should Know

The DFARS interim rule that went into effect on November 30th has a lot of nuances to it — and

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December 28, 2020

EP#35 – Scott Edwards – GCC High Demystified: What CMMC Compliance Means for DIB Firms

< Should I migrate to GCC High? Do I have to? Are there alternatives?  If you’re a DIB member and

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December 17, 2020

EP#34- Scott Armstrong – What DIB Firms Need to Know About the CMMC Interim Rule

If you’ve taken the time to look through the DFARS Interim Rule… All 80+ (potentially) confusing pages of it… You

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November 17, 2020

EP#33- Ryan Buckley – The Secrets to Keeping Your SaaS Secure

SaaS is a great business to be in.  But whether you’re a startup or a mature company…  Your product is

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November 6, 2020

EP#32 – Aaron Guzman & John Yeoh – How IoT Is Shaping the Future of Cybersecurity

The internet of things is taking off.  IoT is bringing new innovations across the board… But it’s also bringing a

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October 26, 2020

EP#31 – Ron Ross – A Brief History of NIST Guidance

ISO 27001, CMMC, NIST 800-53… Keeping track of the myriad security guidelines can be tricky. Especially when you don’t know

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October 7, 2020

EP#30 – John Verry – How To Beat The 6 Most Challenging CMMC L3 Requirements

Preparing to achieve CMMC compliance may seem daunting. Especially in 6 challenging components.  But we’re going to make them easy.  

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September 29, 2020

EP#29 – Reg Harnish – How COVID-19 Is Shaping Security’s Future

Though 2020 has felt decades-long already, we still haven’t had to deal with the long-term effects of the pandemic. But

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September 23, 2020

EP#28 – Why 800-171 Compliance Isn’t Going Away Any Time Soon w/John Ellis

CMMC is coming… But that doesn’t mean 800-171 compliance is out the window.  In this episode, I catch up with

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September 11, 2020

EP#27 – Jon Bass – How DevOps Took Over (& Why You Should Care)

Not too long ago, DevOps seemed like a fringe buzzword… Now, it’s front-and-center. So, what is DevOps and why should

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August 25, 2020

EP#26 – Rich Stever – How to Optimize Your ISMS

When ISO 27001 is optimized for speed, it’s an amazingly effective and efficient way to manage security and compliance. Today’s

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August 18, 2020

EP#25 – Chris Lank – CMMC Compliance & Continuous Monitoring Made Simple

If your organization is in the DIB, CMMC compliance is a big deal. It’s probably the biggest thing to happen

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August 11, 2020

EP#24 – Ryan Mackie – Everything You Need to Know About ISO 27001 Audits

Prepping for an ISO 27001 audit can be a nerve-wracking process.  But it doesn’t have to be.  You just need

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August 5, 2020

EP#23 – Jesse Nash – Why Security Is So Important For a Growing SaaS

If you have a growing SaaS company, security may be far down your list of priorities.  I’ll be blunt… it

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July 23, 2020

EP#22 – Ben Tchoubineh – CMMC Training & Assessments: Rollout, Certification & Competition

If you are scrambling to figure out CMMC, you aren’t alone. It’s perhaps the most sweeping information security change for

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July 17, 2020

EP#21 – Sanjeev Verma – CMMC Compliance Doesn’t Have to be Hard (or Pricey)

If your company works with the DoD… You might be worried about CMMC compliance. But it doesn’t have to be

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July 15, 2020

EP#20 – Kevin Hermosura – Faster, Better & Cheaper Vendor Due Diligence Reviews

Covid 19 has created lots and lots of challenges and opened our eyes to ones that lay dormant. One of

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July 2, 2020

EP#19 – Jim Manico – Why Application Security is a Team Sport and How Your Team Will Win

If you’re a business leader, especially at a SaaS firm or if you’re a developer at a SaaS firm, this

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June 24, 2020

EP#18 – Jose Ciriaco – IT & Security: How to Do More with Less

Information security is a well easily fallen into.  There is so much on the market.  So many things to consider. 

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June 17, 2020

EP#17 – Thomas Price – CMMC Certification Audits—Can You Leverage ISO 27001?

If you want a glimpse into what one of your future CMMC audits will be like, this is the show

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June 9, 2020

EP#16 – Ian Glover – Why Buyers of Security Services Need to Leverage CREST

Who do you trust with your network? Would you give a random person access to the infrastructure that runs your

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June 2, 2020

EP#15 – Andrew van der Stock – The OWASP Top Ten is Great, but is it Enough?

We all have things we consider “the best”. Things we look to. Rely on. What happens when one of those

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May 26, 2020

EP#14 – Brian Dykstra – How Computer Forensics Protects Your Data During Litigation

The word forensics usually makes us think of homicide, but it applies to computers, too. Computer forensics is really just

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May 19, 2020

EP#13 – Debbie Zaller – Why ISO 27701 is the Answer to Privacy Compliance

As the first data privacy certification available, ISO 27701 can greatly reduce the complexity of managing privacy, risk and proving

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May 12, 2020

EP#12 – Cosmo Gazzani – Disaster Recovery, Business Continuity, and Data Resilience

Getting a flat tire is a disaster. Knowing where you keep the spare is disaster recovery. Changing a tire in

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May 5, 2020

EP#11 – Daniel Cuthbert – OWASP ASVS: The Go-To Standard for Application Security

Your application is probably vulnerable.  “But how?! We hired a company to pen test our application. They did a thorough

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April 28, 2020

EP#10 – Stuart Itkin – Exostar and Their Role in Your CMMC Certification

  Is your organization ready for CMMC? As CMMCs roll out over the next 6 years, it’s going to become

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April 21, 2020

EP#9 – Danielle Russell – When an SMB Should Implement a SIEM

As an SMB, you’re probably thinking you’re too insignificant for a targeted cyberattack. That’s not even a little bit true.

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April 13, 2020

EP#8 Tom Garrubba – Resilience Guidance and the SCA

You’re responsible for information security at your SMB, and you need a better, faster and cheaper way to demonstrate your

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April 7, 2020

EP#7 Dr. Joel Kahn – Dead CISOs Don’t Get Bonuses

If you thought this podcast was supposed to be about information security, you might be confused about why we’re featuring

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March 30, 2020

EP#6 Darek Hahn – The Virtual CIO: What it Is and What it Isn’t

In this world of remote work that we’ve found ourselves in, there are likely a lot of companies that are

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March 24, 2020

EP#5 John Verry – Staying Secure in a COVID-19 World

Can we all agree that this is a strange, confusing, and stressful time to be living through?  That none of

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March 17, 2020

EP#4 Andrew Farkas – True Confessions of a Real Virtual CISO

Trust, but verify. These famous words of Ronald Reagan, who, incidentally, would make a fantastic CISO, are also the simplest

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March 10, 2020

EP#3 Dan Schroeder – ISO 27001 vs. SOC 2 – Which Attestation is Right For You

Considering ISO 27001 certification? Wondering about SOC 2 attestation? Trying to figure out the differences between the two? We have

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March 3, 2020

EP#2 Deidre Diamond – How to Attract & Retain Cyber Talent

The cyber talent search feels like a global, dangerous game of Marco Polo.  We’re all looking for each other, but

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February 20, 2020

EP#1 Katie Arrington – CMMC: What You Need to Know About DoD Cybersecurity Regulation

As CISO for Acquisition and Sustainment at the United States Department of Defense, she’s well beyond needing analogies to understand

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